I thought rather than giving another editor’s opinion on the local scene I would take a step back and once again post what you guys have been saying. The Liverpool Band’s facebook page, created and ran by Tony Donaghey and co-admined by myself, is in my eyes Liverpool’s online social music community hub. Every once in a while debate like this is sparked. The problem is not everyone sees it. I thought I’d try and spread the views a little further.As there are strong views and a few names brought up I have to make it clear that these are not necessarily the thoughts of the blog however we will be posting our thoughts soon.

This discussion was started by Mal Williams on the Liverpool Bands wall. These are the thoughts of a group locals who care about our music scene. You do not have to agree with these thoughts but please respect them. Let us know what you think…

(Btw, this laptop is slow and it’s hard to copy and paste a whole load of full comments. Things are a bit mish-mashed but you should be able to make sense of it all)

Mal Williams: Just a thought over my sausage buttie this morning! 
Are we starting to see two different camps on the Liverpool music scene?In the blue corner, non for profit pay to play, The Lomax, T2F, etc. in the red corner, the Zanzibar, Liverpool sound city etc.Another thought after reading yesterday’s echo, do they ever write an article about up and coming Liverpool bands instead of the usual suspects? Come back Penny Kiley, all is forgiven!!!!!!All thoughts on the above would be appreciated!!!!

• Ian Digilogue Check out man gone’s blog.

• Darren Caine jade wright did a feature the other week about ones to watch in 2012…about 8 bands were featured but none from Liverpool…typical!!

• Mal Williams We should get a collective together, write a letter to the echo asking them what she actually does in highlighting the scene?

• Waka Staff The zanzibar duz free nights as well mal (“,)
• Saturday at 10:47 · Like

• Mal Williams Hey I was not passing comment, I know they do with a minimum! We have had very good nights there but we have always had punters through the door. My comments where merely to bring about debate!

Saturday at 10:50 · Like

• Mal Williams Ok lets change it slightly! Two camps! Lomax, Zanzibar, Basement 20 etc! Who put Liverpool bands on! The others who we all know who they are purport to be from Liverpool, however their lineups of Liverpool talent is always quite thin on the ground? Let’s debate?

Saturday at 10:53 · Like ·  1

• Billy Kelly its gunna take some solidarity from all the bands an artists to not play ball

Saturday at 10:53 · Like

• Waka Staff That’s the whole reason why we should all stick together and support the free nights focusing solely on bands from Liverpool,

As for jade wright and Dave monks supposedly ambassadors for local music your just a no-one unless your part of the click they blindfold themselves in !!!!

The sound of Liverpool show on liverradio with Darren Caine puts them to shame !!!!!

Saturday at 11:04 · Like ·  2

• Mal Williams Agree

Saturday at 11:07 · Like

• Mal Williams Come on people are we to afraid of a debate?

Saturday at 11:16 · Like

• Billy Kelly I think the ECHO has forgotten the LIVERPOOL in front of it.SHAME!!!!!!

Saturday at 11:23 · Like ·  1

• Pete Murphy No debate to be had Mal. Its clear that the majority of liverpool bands are under represented by their own local media. I’ve said this before. Tom Robinson on 6music has played our band numerous times and namechecked us regularly on twitter as ones to watch. Dave monks has never played us on his show and jade wright refuses to even acknowledge. My belief is that the we as bands/musicians have to take things into our own hands. Its why darren does is show. Its why i do stop! Rock & Roll.

Saturday at 11:26 · Like ·  2

• Pete Murphy Musicians can help out by supporting these type of things. Dont be apathetic and sit waiting for someone to do it all for you. Listen in to darren’s show. Attend gigs like tony’s another place gig and the lomax nights (like stop rock and roll tonight!) And do something about it rather than letting opportunity pass by. Internet debate is a valid tool to highlight issues but going to see bands and putting aside traditional band tribalism is the only way our music scene will thrive.

Saturday at 11:31 · Like ·  3

• Liverpool Bands Over the last few months I’ve been chatting to a Scouser based in Canada who wants to bring a band over to his home town. How embarrassed am I to say to bands who think this City supports music that there are no gigs which will give you a bit of cash to least cover some costs. Free gigs are great for a chance to get new people to see you BUT we should be talking about the whole picture. If we are to help develop the bands to be the best they can be we need to find ways of supporting them. The Lomax is beginning to develop a two tier system which needs to be encouraged and maybe more established. Some gigs are free some are cheap entry but it needs to be fixed days so punters know where they stand - free entry week days £2 Fridays and a fiver Saturdays. Or even free entry before 9 - £2 before 10 - £5 thereafter. As for Jade I never get the sense that she actually likes music BUT Dave Monks genuinely does - I could relate a conversation he had with a friend yesterday in between messaging me about the gig I’m hosting next week which he promises to mention. I just think he doesn’t always fit into the expectations we think he should achieve.

Saturday at 11:36 · Like ·  2

• Pete Murphy He seems to be good at mentioning gigs tony, but i’ve never seen him at one and the unsigned music he plays is not coming from the uploader, which, according to their own website, is the only way to get songs on local radio. Now we all know thats not how it works but a lot of good bands and songs are still sat in their system unlistened. Will be the same bands played all the time.

Saturday at 11:41 · Like

• Waka Staff Depends on your profile in his rankings I’m afraid tony, myself and numerous members of other bands have sent msgs and not even got a reply, same with jade wright!!!

For me that’s total disrespect to the people who count for this city’s musical heritage

Saturday at 11:44 · Like

• Liverpool Bands He does host gigs often by bands that don’t use this page and that’s the bit I’ve fathomed - there are many bands who don’t need this page and I often wonder how to break into that network - like The Rialto Burns or the now defunct Fly with Vampiresor the bands who suddenly appear via Deltasonic Records or even promoters like EVOL or The Kazimier or The Krazyhouse or Harvest Sun.

Saturday at 11:51 · Like ·  1

• Liverpool Bands Waka I do know the feeling as he didn’t reply to me for years but then out the blue he invited me to do his choose 3 tracks segment on talk about the page. When I met him he was genuinely interested in the tracks I played and the bands we talked about. But as you say he could do a bit more.

Saturday at 11:56 · Like ·  1

• Mal Williams Debate is the start! I think we should get a meeting of all the main players here and the bands! Let’s collect our voices together! I have recently bounced this with Frank from the lomax and he agrees! We could arrange it?

Saturday at 12:06 · Like ·  2

• Russ Hyde not quite getting this argument yet. Is this the ‘you’re not a Liverpool band unless you grew up here’ or the ‘touring bands don’t use local support’ debate?

Saturday at 12:38 · Like

• Limehawk Rock I’d like to attend.

Saturday at 12:38 · Like

• Luke Moore And the Future of Music conference is born….?

Saturday at 12:38 · Like

• Mal Williams Neither Russ

Saturday at 12:39 · Like

• Colin Cheers Mal The Zanzibar is starting a free Sunday acoustic in Feb, they will be on the 2nd and 4th Sunday is every month. there partly booked artist and partly open mic.

Saturday at 12:41 · Like

• Colin Cheers Ian McNabb is hosting them Nd will also be playing ages of his songs.

Saturday at 12:42 · Like

• Russ Hyde well, in that case it was a bit sly on Dave Monks

Saturday at 12:43 · Like

• Mal Williams Open to every band who wants to attend, it would be about the city wide greater Liverpool area from Southport Runcorn, Wirral, St Helen’s, Ormskirk, dare I mention widnes Warrington?

Saturday at 12:43 · Like ·  1



(Bido Lito - Liverpool’s leading music mag)

• Colin Cheers And will also be playing a few of his songs. Appp

Saturday at 12:43 · Like

• Limehawk Rock I think it’s really important that it doesn’t turn into another clique, like the ones that have sunk Liverpool music and several of its venues to date. Tony D’s open door policy and rejection of genre snottiness that has underpinned all the work he has done on this page should be carried over into any discussions, plans, conferences. All should be welcome and should be given an opportunity to sink or swim based on how good their songs/live performance are, not based on how fashionable what they’re playing is.

Saturday at 12:44 · Like ·  2

• Mal Williams There needs to be a formal management committee with a proper agenda?

Saturday at 12:45 · Like

• Colin Cheers Would I attend the Zanzi do you mean Mal ?

Saturday at 12:45 · Like

• Colin Cheers Sorry a few typos, I’m blaming Apples predictive text, sorry.

Saturday at 12:46 · Like

• Mal Williams Colin its not about the Zanzibar! I have no argument with them whatsoever they were mentioned to start the debate! It’s the wider issues! This is me as an individual! I do not represent my band in these views!

Saturday at 12:48 · Like

• Liverpool Bands Colin Mal means will you attend a meeting.

Saturday at 12:50 · Like

• Mal Williams If we have to be venue specific! The Zanzibar is a business that has rates and staff to pay. It has a decent backline, a great sound and lighting system and a great engineer! I think the least bands could do is bring the minimum into the place! It’s only fair! If anything I would like Tony to be a part of this?

Saturday at 12:50 · Like ·  1

• Mal Williams No I want to get a formal collective together maybe a code! What the bands will do and what the venues/ promoters will do in return? Look at how our supposed Media do in this City and out a few charlatans in the process?

Saturday at 12:53 · Like

• Mal Williams We are the 1%

Saturday at 12:54 · Like

• Limehawk Rock I think that we have all we need in Liverpool Bands page. I don’t think that we need a management committee, Mal. I think that this page should serve as a hub for open discussion, so that everyone can get involved and have a say, as it has facilitated thus far! In my experience, committees can very quickly become cliques, accompanied by all the Shakespearean drama of power struggles between its members!

Saturday at 12:54 · Like

• Mal Williams Yes I agree, it has opened the door to debate and discussion, however we now need action, as venues are closing very quickly around us we need action not words!

Saturday at 12:58 · Like

• Liverpool Bands Tony from Limehawk is so right in that we really do have to look at the whole picture. As much as I see negative posts about the heritage side of the City and the cover circuit we need representatives of both being involved and not be sniffy. We have to stand in town on a Saturday night and wonder what all these people are doing and how many we can reach and why we don’t. I’ve attended unsigned nights at the O2 small room with 50 in there and had the opportunity to walk up to the main room which was buzzing full to capacity. There are people out there wanting to go to great gigs and hear great music - we have to make them our goal. So we have to provide a free gig circuit where you learn your craft and then move onto better nights were because people have paid to get in they are only right to expect a certain level of competence/quality. Around here we have a bunch of people called the gig cartel who promote gigs at many venues. The thing they do that we can learn from is place adverts in the monthly music press and locally. Our venues need to think look we can’t afford to advertise by ourselves but a shared advert - page or half page would increase the City profile.

Saturday at 13:14 · Like ·  3

• Liverpool Bands Tony from Limehawk is so right in that we really do have to look at the whole picture. As much as I see negative posts about the heritage side of the City and the cover circuit we need representatives of both being involved and not be sniffy. We have to stand in town on a Saturday night and wonder what all these people are doing and how many we can reach and why we don’t. I’ve attended unsigned nights at the O2 small room with 50 in there and had the opportunity to walk up to the main room which was buzzing full to capacity. There are people out there wanting to go to great gigs and hear great music - we have to make them our goal. So we have to provide a free gig circuit where you learn your craft and then move onto better nights were because people have paid to get in they are only right to expect a certain level of competence/quality. Around here we have a bunch of people called the gig cartel who promote gigs at many venues. The thing they do that we can learn from is place adverts in the monthly music press and locally. Our venues need to think look we can’t afford to advertise by ourselves but a shared advert - page or half page would increase the City profile.

Saturday at 13:14 · Like ·  3

• Graham Tinsley  As I’m the bloke that Tony was chatting to (ex brit/scouser in Canada) i thought i’d at least say hello. The local Canadian music scene is probably in worse shape than Liverpool if that’s any consolation. Key promoters hold the keys to gigging in most venues and you need to be their best mate to play….then you need to bring out normally a minimum of 25 people to their gig. And you might get some petrol money. In Canada, I’m just booking any place that can hold 50-100, inviting locals and touring bands and running them as not for profit but its a tough slog.There are some things I think are amazing that Tony and others seem to be leading in Liverpool…. There needs to be an entry level circuit. Good honest promoters will appreciate it as a place to view bands that can actually show up on time, be professional, play a tune etc (I don’t mean that negatively - just it’s a big jump from basement / rehearsal space to stage) Venues need to think big picture and have a part in growing the developing music scene. In Canada, mainstream newspapers and radio are dead or operating as lackeys to the traditional music industry. They write and play what the labels tell them. Local bloggers and indepenedent (internet?) radio is the way to go where the organizations have some integrity and are in it for the long haul. You’ve got Liverpool Bands + Mangone blog + ??? (radio) as a winning combination. I’m jealous. Just my 2p looking in from the outside.

• Liverpool Bands The radio show is The Sound of Liverpool with Darren Caine (liver radio) plus 7 Waves Community Radio 92.1

 Saturday at 15:51 · Like ·  1

• Peter Charles If you’re looking for well-informed articles about up-and-coming bands in the Echo, you’re looking in the wrong place. On the rare occasion they feature a local band, the articles are not snappy enough to suggest to me that there’s anything.

• Saturday at 15:53 · Like ·  8

• Joe Forrest The problem is getting numbers to gigs, which is understandable in the current economic climate, but also many people are brain washed into thinking MASSIVE festivals and the BIG stadium gigs are the only type going to and don’t even investigate local music, mainly because they don’t know about it. Nights outside of the circuit like the another place gig next week and Limehawk’s gig at Stanleys Cask a few weeks ago are great because not only are bands playing their own material in front of people who they would never normally reach, but they’re also getting paid for it, and if they play well the pub/bar asks them back! Did you see the law changes the government made this week so pubs can start having live music again? I see that as a brilliant thing and an opportunity for musicians to meet in their locals everywhere. A new night just starting atPeggy Gadflys down the road from me every Thurs night which does bring awareness to people you would never normally reach. Not dissing any of the above points, just saying let’s embrace the changes to the scene!

Saturday at 16:13 · Like ·  1

• Liverpool Bands Bido Lito is a great mag which is why because I live in West Yorkshire I subscribe to it. As for putting on your own gigs most bands do in some form or other whether it be friends houses or bigger premises. But once a band has a fan base a band has to break into a bigger audience and that only builds if the venues they move into have their own punters. Likewise Bido Lito is still building so if it writes about a band then it has limited impact. The comments about the Echo are that itis supposed to support local issues and causes but it’s perceived rightly or wrongly not to fulfill that were local bands are concerned. Bands yes have many means at their disposal but that still doesn’t mean they should be hampered by promoters who are only interested in footfall and not in building a reputation of putting on quality entertainment. Much of what I write stems from a Frank Black interview when he thought his band was ready to gig when first starting out - the promoter didn’t ask how many people can you bring. He said never heard you play first spot on Monday and if we like you you can have second spot. It took them a year to get to prime spot Saturday night. I ‘ve known bands been given headline status on their first gig cos they sold 50 tickets to Granny’s and Uncles and Aunts - that does not make a healthy scene.

Saturday at 16:19 · Like

• Pete Murphy Would add Greedy Jesus’s Wednesday nights at the Old Roan and the Carters Arms gigs as further examples of how pub gigs, which for some bands are a no-go, can house precisely the type of fan your band needs to progress. You need the casual music fan that wouldnt normally go to a gig but would listen to a band in their local, maybe buy a CD if they like you and then maybe attend a town gig at a venue if they really like you. We did the Old Roan a couple of weeks ago and we had people take a genuine interest in us, we shifted a few CD’s and got a few new facebook likes. If that translates into a couple of new faces coming to see us in town then job done.

Saturday at 16:24 · Like ·  2

• Mal Williams Sounds good Pete! I like the debate!!!!

Saturday at 16:26 · Like

• Joe Forrest Bido Lito, briliant, but you only reach a certain number of people who are already in the know about the scene. The thing with Dave Monks and the Echo crowd is they are not doing the job they should be doing, and IF THEY DID the scene would be immediately benefited because they do reach a vast audience who are not in the know because they don’t know where to look. Most people I know don’t know about Bido Lito, not because they’re not interested in music but because it’s not in the awareness of the general public around the city. As I said above, reaching new audiences will help vastly and the more Bido’s, Man Gone’s, Liver Radio’s, local night’s and people talking, the more awareness there is.

Saturday at 16:27 · Like ·  3

• Mal Williams Anyway to bring everything to a close! Kynchinlay, live at the Lomax next Saturday 4th Feb 2012. Onstage at approx 9:30. T2F first anniversary. Free entry, great music from in by ones, joe Symes and ourselves. Last gig prior to our recording! Be great to see you all down there for a pint and a fight! Only messing debate!

Saturday at 16:35 · Like

• Joe Forrest  Nice one Pete, I will check them out sounds good. Other bands I’ve seen really make a name for themselves in Wallasey by playing pubs like Stanleys Cask are Xander & The Peace Pirates (who supported Bon Jovi last year!) and Guardians, who u…See more

Saturday at 16:40 · Like

• Liverpool Bands Pete that’s exactly something I try to say to bands - gigs need to “pay” you need to come away and say what did we earn tonight? “no cash but 10 new fans and a new venue that’s invited us back.” The gig I’m going to tonight at Mojo by Man Get Out is being hosted by Janice Long of Radio 2 because they played a gig to very few people but she was there loved their stuff they had a CD to give to her (how many bands forget to take them to a gig) put them on the radio and invited them for a session. The gig was in London and they weren’t asked how many can you bring but just come and play.

Saturday at 16:40 · Like ·  3

• Pete Murphy Might have to sneak out with a Fidel CD tonight to hand over!

Saturday at 16:45 · Like

• Peter Charles It’s an interesting point you raise, LB, about breaking into bigger venues. I’ve played in bands since my late teens and I’ve never seen the music scene in terms of a two-tier hierarchy, as you seem to be describing it, and I’ve never thoug…See more

Saturday at 16:47 · Like ·  2

• Keith Baxendale I’ve asked this before but how /why and where domyountap

Saturday at 16:48 · Like

• Mal Williams We actually do quite well in sheffield

Saturday at 16:49 · Like

• Keith Baxendale Typo sorry guys - how and where do we tap into the huge student market sat on our doorstep?

Saturday at 16:49 · Like

• Keith Baxendale There must be uni gigs run by the uni’s with acces to cheap uni beer and so on. I know it might upset city venues but am I so far out of touch that uni’s are no longer great gig venues for decent practiced new bands to play?

Saturday at 16:51 · Like

• Will Fitzpatrick ‎”market”?

Saturday at 16:53 · Like

• Liverpool Bands They do gigs some of which are televised on the Internet The 2ube which has uni acts but also has local bands playing.

Saturday at 16:57 · Like ·  2

• Joe Forrest Tony, try be a bit cheeky and say hello to Janice, tell her you run this page, she might be interested and invite you on the show, talk about local music and the scene????????

Saturday at 16:57 · Like ·  1

• Peter Charles Thanks for the feedback Joe. With Bido Lito, we’re always looking for ways to reach a wider audience (e.g. by launching a website), but I appreciate that it is quite niche, and maybe doesn’t reach enough people (it’s certainly not the intention to be deliberately exclusive).

Saturday at 16:58 · Like ·  1

• Liverpool Bands Pete there are venues with regulars ie The Carters or Old Roan or the venues in Wales that invited and paid bands via the page to play last year. All have a regular clientele that they want to entertain and keep. It’s a variation on the cover circuit that pays good money because their customers remain loyal as a result of good acts. It’s the same reason anotherplace has asked me to host a night and is paying the bands. The two tier system is simply that many of the promoters like Evol and Harvest Sun have their own contacts so publicly don’t have to advertise for bands on pages like this. It’s not set in stone just the way it is and the same goes for Deltasonic - suddenly a band will appear that seems to jump a huge level and you become aware of Delta’s involvement . Not complaining just stating that there are bands operating with added advantage that many would love to have access to. And as for the out of town gigs luckily we now have things like BandWagon trawling for good gigs - hopefully this will stop the past rip offs were bands have been asj

Saturday at 17:09 · Like

• Liverpool Bands ‎..asked to bring 30 people for a support slot to a DJ set in London only to get there and only play to those 30 people - ditto see the number of out of town bands that do the same thing with the opportunity to play the Cavern.

Saturday at 17:12 · Like

• Liverpool Bands Hmmm Joe the thought never crossed my mind :)

Saturday at 17:36 · Like ·  1

• Joe Forrest No worries Peter, Bido is a great and much needed paper and as the website proves it’s only getting more popular and going to reach more people, keep up the good work1 And Tony if she’s genuinely interested in new music and helping am sure she’ll at least be interested in a chat and hearing about the success of the page, especially as you don’t even live in the city and do it purely out of love!

Saturday at 18:09 · Like ·  1

• Joe Forrest Tony, even better get the band to introduce you and put in a good word, they’re sounds lads sure they will ha.

Saturday at 18:19 · Like

• Joe Woods Hello everyone just read the above, great debate I agree with most of what is being said. Some of the most notable venues in town are cocktail type bars, many of which are a bit fancy and I don’t think its fair to expect music goers to pay 4 quid for a pint after paying in aswell, unfortunately this is the case. The pay to play thing is something I think everyone would agree is ridiculous. At times we have been told that the money we brought in from tickets was not ‘enough.’ It’s not easy to say no to these people but they can’t force anyone to empty their own wallets.We have been playing here and elsewhere for about 3 years its far from lucrative and sometimes disheartening but I think to focus more on the crap stuff about the live music scene could be dangerous. Of course exposing the problems is crucial. However, there is great talent out there, fair promoters like Lazy Genius, great media like ManGone, BidoLito plus this page and a lot of enjoyment to be had from gigging in the city, I think this is worth telling young people as much as the important cautionary advice is. Cheers guys

Yesterday at 00:26 · Like ·  3

• Mal Williams Joe without being cruel …. What’s your point?

Yesterday at 03:04 · Like

• Joe Woods I didn’t suggest that I neccesarily had a point, just sharing some of my ideas and thoughts on what has been mentioned.

Yesterday at 03:54 · Like

• Darren Caine Can i have a go? I suggest that we wipe the slate clean and start building for tomorrow. Over the last few months ive come to realise that the majority of musicians who have actually made it in the past dont really care about new talent coming thru and turning to them to mentor or show a face at a gig is in most cases impossible…

Yesterday at 07:24 · Like ·  1

• Darren Caine what are they scared of??? Losing their crown? scared that someone may be better than them? As for media coverage…it seems to go down to the popularity vote..wtf is that all about? If some one has 1500 followers on facebook and someonehas 500 then 1500 get the play…….Now pay to play…..lets think about keeping bands well informed as to what venues require what…they are all tagged with a certain percentage and if a band wants to play that venue after they know what the venue require in terms of ticket sales then leave them to it…Im not gonna listen to bands go on about pay to play after theyve agreed to play it…they’ll soon learn….venues are on the backfoot believe me… Now the Lomax, harbour bar, old roan, carters arms, another place, head of steam to name a few are giving you gigs…get a crowd and enjoy it…..I am giving you radio exposure and magazine exposure if u want it…LETS START A NEW!!! Push as a whole unit rather than break off into groups, just think merseybeat and why it was called merseybeat….Every band pushed together. RESPECT is a vital ingredient to making this city a musical city again!! Happy Sunday x

Yesterday at 07:36 · Like ·  2

• Mal Williams What about bands who after soundcheck, Sit in their van all night until its time to get on stage? Arrogance is shit!

Yesterday at 10:45 · Like

• Darren Caine Live and learn

Yesterday at 10:49 · Like

• Peter Charles If you’re looking for well-informed articles about up-and-coming bands in the Echo, you’re looking in the wrong place. On the rare occasion they feature a local band, the articles are not snappy enough to suggest to me that there’s anything special about them. Bido Lito (www.bidolito.co.uk), which I write for, is to my knowledge the only print publication which strives to promote the breadth of musical talent this city has to offer. I’m clueless as to why people think the Echo has a mandate to be any sort of authority on the music scene and that it is the ‘Holy Grail’ in terms of coverage. In light of the Twitter/Facebook explosion of the Noughties, I think people either underestimate or are unaware of how much power is now in their own hands to promote their band. And if no-one will give you a gig, do it yourself! It’s not as hard as you might think.

Saturday at 15:53 · Like ·  8